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Digital Messiah Oregami Ultd	Posted - 2011.07.08 19:03:00 - [1] Edited by: Digital Messiah on 08/07/2011 19:04:18 I wasn't sure how to best approach this subject. As I have already received confirmation that the issue was being addressed. I have come to the conclusion that something this game changing should simply be addressed sooner. But how much really needs to be changed to balance out hybrid turrets? Lucky for you I have put together a spreadsheet to show the differences between all "tech 1" Turrets (not missiles). "Turret stats" Enjoy and rally here, for a brighter and hybrid friendly future! My vote goes to fixing turret balance issues and bugs before another ship is introduced. Why make new ships if what we are flying already is broken?
Digital Messiah Oregami Ultd	Posted - 2011.07.08 19:56:00 - [2] The tracking is almost Identical between blasters and autocannons. The range is the main issue here. For blasters I could see a slight damage mod boost and range increase balancing them out. Rails look more like they are suffering with damage mods. And if you have ever used railguns you could see yourself how little damage they can apply. I could see a cpu requirement decrease and a damage increase balancing out railguns. All together the main issue here is drastic differences and identical stats in other areas. Hybrid turrets are supposed to be the middle ground. Blasters are like a beat up truck with a lot of horsepower but no torque "it could do a lot if it could get anywhere". Railguns can get everywhere, they just don't have the damage to make it matter. TL;DR, Hybrids are not the middle ground turret and need to be reviewed drastically.
Digital Messiah Oregami Ultd	Posted - 2011.07.08 20:55:00 - [3] Edited by: Digital Messiah on 08/07/2011 20:55:41 Originally by: Atticus Fynch Originally by: Dead Bait Maybe your looking at it backwards, maybe projectile turrets are too strong. So instead of buffing hybrids, just nerf everything else? Would require more work to do that I think. And fixing all the gallente ships is slightly unrealistic. Sure they need some serious work done. But it won't fix the problems non ship related with hybrid turrets. And it goes without saying there are ships of every race that need fixing.
Digital Messiah Oregami Ultd	Posted - 2011.07.09 00:44:00 - [4] Edited by: Digital Messiah on 09/07/2011 00:45:24 Originally by: Omara Otawan Edited by: Omara Otawan on 09/07/2011 00:03:14 Originally by: Digital Messiah But how much really needs to be changed to balance out hybrid turrets? Not much really. Most hybrid platforms need a little more pg, or the turrets less pg requirements. A slight bump around 5% in raw damage output maybe as icing on the cake, thats it. That goes for medium and large hybrids, smalls are perfectly fine as is and the ships that use them among the most powerful in game. The most important part in 'fixing hybrids' is actually 'fixing the players', which is beyond the power of CCP unfortunately. It is here that I have to, to some degree, disagree with your opinion. Although I am certain that some players maybe able to cope and use versatile builds to compensate. It is imperative to view the disadvantages of the system. It is not fair to provide a theory based on player skill alone either. Otherwise it would be easy to deduce that all minmatar pilots were inherently better skilled because of their performance. I spent quite some time putting together those spreadsheets to show the differences of our paper math. Before posting please assume that on average pilot skill isn't pro, there maybe a problem with something that even talented veterans complain about, and not everyone who plays this game has all level 5 skills in turret support and ship skills. "Oh well, EFT says with perfect skills and overheating a megathron can get in range to apply this much dmg." - many arguments... Load that up in a skill plan for me, all level 5. Then explain to me how that is viable when a large percentage of pvp'ers don't have it. Or if they do, they are not wasting that much SP flying anything under a capital for pvp. TL;DR - The purpose of this change isn't to solely effect those with years of training in hybrids. The main goal is to make leveling and using them from start to finish viable.
Digital Messiah Oregami Ultd	Posted - 2011.07.09 01:55:00 - [5] Originally by: Kumq uat I have those skills at 5 and it is still crap compared to everything else. Missiles are almost on par in pvp I hear. Back to the topic at hand. CCP, work on this now please. I promise we won't mind if you take time off of making more NEX items.
Digital Messiah Oregami Ultd	Posted - 2011.07.09 05:30:00 - [6] Edited by: Digital Messiah on 09/07/2011 05:34:03 Originally by: AMatay Originally by: Digital Messiah Edited by: Digital Messiah on 08/07/2011 20:51:09 I wasn't sure how to best approach this subject. As I have already received confirmation that the issue was being addressed. I have come to the conclusion that something this game changing should simply be addressed sooner. But how much really needs to be changed to balance out hybrid turrets? Lucky for you I have put together a spreadsheet to show the differences between all "tech 1 and tech 2" Turrets (not missiles). "Tech 1 Turret stats" - "Tech 2 Turret stats" Enjoy and rally here, for a brighter and hybrid friendly future! My vote goes to fixing turret balance issues and bugs before another ship is introduced. Why make new ships if what we are flying already is broken? Edit for: Now with tech 2 spreadsheet! really hope this issue is goign to get some attention, OP says that he recieved comfirmation that it will be, i would liek to know where this comformation is comign from so i could see it myself, and know what kind of time line were looking at for changes to be made http://www.eveonline.com/iNgameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1531757 I got directed to a response by CCP, that they are on a list. And so are sub capital hulls... When that item on that list gets addressed is what worries me. http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1525620&page=5 ^ quotes origination.
Digital Messiah Oregami Ultd	Posted - 2011.07.09 06:54:00 - [7] Originally by: Kumq uat Originally by: Speaker4 theDead If they fix gallente guns, it will just be another shiptype to train for fleet FOTM fits.. Still waiting for you to make a point about something. I have to agree with Kumq uat here, you haven't given a reason to why you like or dislike these proposed changes. Or for that matter given an opinion in relevance to this thread. I am sorry you are leaving eve, and you have decided to un-subscribe. But please join one of the many, many, I quit threads, instead of polluting this one.
Digital Messiah Oregami Ultd	Posted - 2011.07.09 09:25:00 - [8] Originally by: Cofidre Edited by: Cofidre on 09/07/2011 08:29:11 Quote: I wasn't sure how to best approach this subject. Maybe you should have checked "preview post" before posting and deleted it all. There is nothing wrong with hybrids, changing race might be better suited for you, perhaps an elf or a mage! Antimatter Charge L kin-28 HP therm-20 HP base shield-32.8 base armor-34.0 Multifrequency LEM-28 HP therm-20 HP base shield-44.0 base armor-24.2 EMP L EM-36 Exp-8 kin-4 therm-0 base shield-41.6 base armor-24.6 Now let us compare dmg mods with the most powerful large turret selections. Blasters Neutron Blaster Cannon II Large/18.2 GJ/7,200+10,000m/7.875 s/4.2x/0.0433 rad/sec400 m/2363 MW61 tf Rails 425mm Railgun II Large/30 GJ/57,600+24,000m/9.563 s/3.3x/0.009625 rad/sec400 m/2625 MW77 tf Pulse Mega Pulse Laser II Large/ 40 GJ/ 24,000+8,000m/7.88 s/ 3.6x/0.03375 rad/sec 400 m/2750 MW53 tf Beam Mega Beam Laser II Large /65 GJ/ 48,000+16,000m/9.00 s/ 3.6x/0.0153125 rad/sec 400 m/3575 MW58 tf Tachyon Beam Laser II Large/ 95 GJ/ 52,800+20,000m/12.50 s/ 5.4x/0.0139205 rad/sec 400 m/4125 MW63 tf Autocannons 800mm Repeating Artillery II Large/0/4,800+19,200m/7.875 s/3.234x/0.0432 rad/sec400 m/2200 MW41 tf Artillery 1200mm Artillery Cannon II Large/0/38,640+35,000m/21.038 s/6.098x/0.01125 rad/sec400 m/3025 MW44 tf 1400mm Howitzer Artillery II Large/0/48,000+35,000m/40.163 s/12.807x/0.009 rad/sec400 m/3575 MW47 tf Since you are so quick to post non-sense. Please use this information to explain why these paper numbers look good and balanced. But do not perform so in game. Or perhaps you have undeniable evidence that there is nothing wrong with hybrids?
Digital Messiah Oregami Ultd	Posted - 2011.07.09 10:27:00 - [9] Edited by: Digital Messiah on 09/07/2011 10:27:48 Originally by: Hacra There's nothing wrong with hybrids, learn to fly noobtards. Hybrid turret experience? Which is why you have 3,752,158 sp trained in projectile turrets? If you are going to shoot down others through means of personal experience. Next time post with a character that proves you know what you're talking about. I almost forgot to mention you don't even have small hybrid turret level 1.
Digital Messiah Oregami Ultd	Posted - 2011.07.09 14:30:00 - [10] Originally by: White Tree Both the CSM and CCP are thoroughly informed on how Gallente and Hybrid weapons are performing extremely poorly in the game these days. I am confident that CCP Tallest will eventually get around to looking at this problem. As far as I and a number of CSM members are concerned: CCP Tallest is a saint who walks on water and can do no wrong. I am hopeful that Gallente and Hybrids will get looked at soonÖ Although this information is very relieving. It does not mean we are not looking at a time frame of imaginable lengths. I to share your faith that the issue will be addressed. I only hope it is within this next calendar year. I have yet to research the time it takes for CCP to change game data. Though it cannot be to unreasonable a task. What is stopping them from releasing small patches to test on SiSi? And why does every game balance change have to be so drastic it literally moves empires worth of skill points? Lastly, thank you for making an appearance in our little thread. It is reassuring to see feedback from any and every source with a knowledgeable background.

Digital Messiah Oregami Ultd	Posted - 2011.07.10 03:48:00 - [11] Originally by: Hentes Zsemle You could just end this thread, the sooner the better. CCP proved numerous times that they don't care about hybrids, nor balancing gallente in general. These threads are just giving people false hope. The more we bring this to light, the faster it will be resolved. They can not completely ignore blatantly obvious flaws.
Digital Messiah Oregami Ultd	Posted - 2011.07.10 04:02:00 - [12] Originally by: Mors Sanctitatis I've been saying blasters need to get fixed for.. oh... about four years now... Blasters are awesome! Sure we have brought it up, time and time again. But have we ever broken into cold hard facts? Kept sprinting head first guns blazing at the forums? Are we rogue drones, or are we... capsuleers! Cheesy RP "BS" aside. I honestly don't think CCP knows what to do about them. They are probably afraid they will upset the balance of the game like they had before. And now that it requires a large amount of work to fix... Well I am trying to make it a higher priority of theirs. That at least has some merit to it. Either tonight or tomorrow I am going to attempt to make another spreadsheet comparing ship types. Perhaps that will help us understand the major changes that could be made more easily. I do not disregard all the wonderful ideas about fixing hybrids. I am just uncertain to whether they are the end all or best route. More research must be done in the name of science! So lets do science.
Digital Messiah Oregami Ultd	Posted - 2011.07.10 21:30:00 - [13] Edited by: Digital Messiah on 10/07/2011 21:32:08 The root of the issue is more expansive than simply the turrets. As a response to the mention of caldari hybrid systems. It is only fair to add them into this discussion as well. Though it would be beneficial to keep all missiles talk out of it. It also should be noted. That the rokh can not even fit 425's without a PDS,RCU, or ACR. Which is strange seeing as it is supposed to be a hybrid long range platform. It is harder to properly fit hybrid platforms than Tachyon Beam Laser II's on an abaddon / apocalypse. And even though you have to use power grid boosters to fit tachyon's. It is only because of the vast difference between Tach's and Mega's. Tachyon Beam Laser II - Large - 95 - GJ - 52,800+20,000m - 12.50 s - 5.4x - 0.0139205 rad/sec - 400 m - 4125 MW - 63 tf 425mm Railgun II - Large - 30 GJ - 57,600+24,000m - 9.563 s - 3.3x - 0.009625 rad/sec - 400 m - 2625 MW - 77 tf 1400mm Howitzer Artillery II - Large - 0 GJ - 48,000+35,000m - 40.163 s - 12.807x - 0.009 rad/sec - 400 m - 3575 MW - 47 tf It costs more CPU to use 425mm Railgun II's than Tachyon Beam's or 1400mm's. The damage mod is comparably lower than Tachyon's for their ROF. The 1400mm's have amnesty seeing as they have a 40.163 second ROF. They also cost more power grid than the other two. Now after reading that last sentence you might be thinking "2625 MW? Something doesn't make sense..." But when you consider. rank 3 CPU/PG (level 5 skills) Abaddon: 700/26250 Maelstrom: 800/26250 Hyperion: 750/19687.5 Rokh: 975/18750 rank 2 CPU/PG (level 5 skills) Apocalypse: 631.25/25625 Tempest: 687.5/19375 Megathron: 687.5/19375 Raven: 875/11875 rank 1 CPU/PG (level 5 skills) Armageddon: 606.25/20625 Typhoon: 750/15625 Dominix: 750/11250 Scorpion: 937/11250 You can see that all of the Gallente ships suffer from lack of power grid. Now what I can't understand is why an armor tank based ship would be lacking so greatly in power grid? CCP must of realized that even by lowering the cost of turrets for this race. People would be faced with fitting issues when it came to tanking. It isn't like Gallente gets a reduction to fitting hull and armor modules. The amount of CPU given, even to the drone boats. Does not make up for the cost of simply fitting hybrids on these ships. And drone modules cost a lot of CPU on their own. The increased CPU cost removes the ability to use Weapon Upgrades in and of themselves. Things get worse when you compare the ideals for which these ships are meant to be used. As a sniping vessel, they are meant to out run/maneuver their opponent. Which is why scram/webifiers exist. Although you don't even require either to catch up or keep pace with them. Which is where the agility and m/s factors in. The tracking is either lacking or on par for any other turret platform. While blasters lack optimal which is necessary to properly apply dps. And Hybrids are lacking in damage modification. Not including other factors that we see, which is why they lack comparable performance. Ammo fits into funny use and categories. As tech 2 variations both have a negative percentage, range modifying, variant. Rails have some understanding when it comes to having a variation that reduces range for damage. But -75% is beyond extreme considering they are a sniping niche. The idea of blasters being given less range is simply ridiculous. Null should not give a pilot less range when blasters are already the lowest and comparably worse ranged turrets. Projectile and Lasers have the advantage of at least being able to properly boost their optimal or falloff respectively. Allowing for modification to take a far greater effect. With all of this in mind it is easy to see how to balance Gallente. A small boost to areas that are disabling proper performance and fitting, tweaking turrets, and improving ship agility and speed. And we would still have our unique ammo damage and niche's. I say SiSi tests 2% changes until balanced. Quote: "Frankly, my dear, I don't give a damn"
Digital Messiah Oregami Ultd	Posted - 2011.07.10 21:40:00 - [14] Quote: Things get worse when you compare the ideals for which these ships are meant to be used. As a sniping vessel, they are meant to out run/maneuver their opponent. Which is why scram/webifiers exist. Although you don't even require either to catch up or keep pace with them. Which is where the agility and m/s factors in. This was meant to say sniping and close combat vessel. But I ran out of room and having trouble editing this portion properly. Quote: "Frankly, my dear, I don't give a damn"
Digital Messiah Oregami Ultd	Posted - 2011.07.10 21:59:00 - [15] Originally by: Eyup Mi'duck Originally by: AMatay Originally by: Eyup Mi'duck So Hybrids are cr4p? Train up something else instead! At least you didn't invest in a BPO for mines like I did! so 1/4th of the ships in the game shouldnt be used because they are crap and we should all jsut ignore them and train for things that work properly? Yes! So why on earth do you insist on flying the crap ones? That's got to be the dumbest strategy. Not every one trained hybrids after the changes. And some people like the idea of training a race regardless of their current performance. Lets take any classic rpg in mind here. Let's say you like playing a mage, while rogues and warriors are doing better. And rangers are doing great in one department but not so much in another. You love the look of the mage, the way magic spells come out, and your kicking cool outfit/style. Why should you not play what you want to? Because the other two outperform you in what you are supposed to be good at? Instead shouldn't the developers balance out the game to make mages more viable? Just because you play this game to be the best regardless of it meaning wearing a rusty suit of armor, or being shiny all the time. Doesn't mean everyone else wants to. And even though missioning is better money than mining. People still do it. Your opinions do not make a statement true. And you can not change the ideals of others. So it is best to consider the choices of others before criticizing them through your own. Quote: "Frankly, my dear, I don't give a damn"
Digital Messiah Oregami Ultd	Posted - 2011.07.10 22:34:00 - [16] Originally by: Eyup Mi'duck Originally by: Digital Messiah And some people like the idea of training a race regardless of their current performance. That's great, but if you do, then you have to accept their limitations as well. Originally by: Digital Messiah Just because you play this game to be the best regardless of it meaning wearing a rusty suit of armor, or being shiny all the time. Doesn't mean everyone else wants to. And even though missioning is better money than mining. People still do it. Your opinions do not make a statement true. And you can not change the ideals of others. So it is best to consider the choices of others before criticizing them through your own. OK so you have a choice. Option 1: stay with what you've got and keep on complaining - you have zero control over the outcome and if CCP make any changes, it will be "soon" . Option 2: Retrain and fly something else - yes this will take a little time and effort, but YOU can make it happen. THAT is your choice! I am not complaining in the sense you have stated. I am simply finding fault with hybrid weapons. The only way to be above this effecting you is to have all weapon systems trained. And even if I could make it happen. I am going to assume this means play the game as you see fit "what is over powered atm". It doesn't mean I don't want this issue resolved for the changes it would make to pvp, pve, and the games economy. Quote: "Frankly, my dear, I don't give a damn"
Digital Messiah Oregami Ultd	Posted - 2011.07.11 00:18:00 - [17] Originally by: Jaehawn CCP isnt going to fix hybrids. They are going to spend your money on WoD and Dust 514. You all need to get used to it and live with it. You will eat what they feed you and play where they tell you. Its their money and they can play with it how they want too. Stop asking for things. Its not your game. So any post asking for any game improvement needs to be deleted and the user silenced. The great CCP has spoken and you have all fed on it. 100000 AUR might buy you a better hybrid turret if you ask nicely and remember to wipe your chin. When it comes to implementing new features. And providing new content, sure I could agree with you. When it involves features and content that is already under review and being changed. Then I think your entire statement is trash. Please take your hate mongering for the game else where. And it would help to look into how developers actually develop a game. If you hadn't kept up with what this thread is really about... We are trying to get this issue addressed sooner. And provide feedback on how to do so in an actually balanced, realistic, and reasonable manner. Quote: "Frankly, my dear, I don't give a damn"
Digital Messiah Oregami Ultd	Posted - 2011.07.11 01:34:00 - [18] Originally by: AMatay Originally by: Eyup Mi'duck Originally by: AMatay Originally by: Eyup Mi'duck So Hybrids are cr4p? Train up something else instead! At least you didn't invest in a BPO for mines like I did! so 1/4th of the ships in the game shouldnt be used because they are crap and we should all jsut ignore them and train for things that work properly? Yes! So why on earth do you insist on flying the crap ones? That's got to be the dumbest strategy. your comment perfectly proves the point of the thread, gallente are so far behind the other races that they should be avoided completely. if this isnt proof they need to be balanced nothing is Hear, hear! Quote: "Frankly, my dear, I don't give a damn"
Digital Messiah Oregami Ultd	Posted - 2011.07.11 20:28:00 - [19] Originally by: SilentSkills confirming that this thread is now 6 pages long, and CCP has said nothing yet. It's safe to assume blasters will not be fixed as they are "working as intended" They know that hybrid turrets are not working as intended. The point of this thread was to petition changes sooner. It really is a huge part of this game. And needs to be addressed before changes to a single ship, "tengu", "dramiel", etc. I just hope CCP has at least read this. And knows that I will not rest, and will never find a lack of individuals with similar views, until this issue is addressed. The only problem I see so far. Is that I am going to be known as the guy who cried hybrid turrets . Quote: "Frankly, my dear, I don't give a damn"
Digital Messiah Oregami Ultd	Posted - 2011.07.11 21:43:00 - [20] Edited by: Digital Messiah on 11/07/2011 21:43:14 Originally by: nartela i say no to change they will only screw up anothere weapon system in the process of trying to fix them, i suggest you train for another weapon system or just work around the problem somehow. Demon Azrakel 20 million in hybrid turrets and support skills. And this person should just change their year worth of SP? So that this issue can continue until no one uses hybrids anymore? No, I think a fix is in order. CCP this thread will continue on! Please respond letting us know you have at least considering making this a higher priority. Quote: "Frankly, my dear, I don't give a damn"

Digital Messiah Oregami Ultd	Posted - 2011.07.12 17:45:00 - [21] Originally by: Mekkimaru /signed fix plox was going to reply to clueless people on this thread, but decided to only waste the time typing this for them Clueless people at least keep this thread bumped. Even if they sit there and mock people for choosing a race to play. Which is one of the most idiotic reasons to mock a player in eve. Quote: "Frankly, my dear, I don't give a damn"
Digital Messiah Oregami Ultd	Posted - 2011.07.12 22:13:00 - [22] Originally by: Maduin Ardens Blasters were just fine before the nano nerf, but now they have no real place to go. I think that is why CCP has not addressed them yet, because they need to retain some distinguishing characteristics compared to other weaponry classes, but one of the things that actually distinguished them has been nerfed and will not be coming back. Rather than give Gallente racial bonuses based on range (which is silly for blasters) they should be giving velocity bonuses so Gallente boats get back some of their old luster. Sure maybe a slightly faster Blasterthron is not going to make them better for enormous fleets of Abaddons and Geddons, but it will put them back on the map, which is all most of us really want. We already have the Machariel which can go +400m/s with a 100MN afterburner, why couldn't CCP just make Gallente boats have better role bonuses so they can bridge the gap between short range and nerfed speed? Even if they increased the default range on blasters and gave rails a higher dmg mod and tracking. They would be nearly balanced. The problem isn't getting around. It is hitting things. Sitting on top of someone is also a way larger advantage than shooting from a distance as well. Unless of course you are shooting from a distance greater than their fall off. Which is the current issue with hybrids. Hell even if they made hybrids the best tracking turrets it would help make them great. Quote: "Frankly, my dear, I don't give a damn"
Digital Messiah Oregami Ultd	Posted - 2011.07.12 22:26:00 - [23] No turret has far better tracking than another. If you look at the spreadsheet, you can see that they are very comparable. By giving hybrids the best tracking they would only be doing as their role is intended. The best up close and personal consistent dps "aka you can't plan to always stand toe to toe." And the most consistent turret hits from far range. Rails already do miserable dmg long range compared to other turrets. It makes it even worse they can't hit the blind side of a cruiser at optimal without tracking mods. Quote: "Frankly, my dear, I don't give a damn"
Digital Messiah Oregami Ultd	Posted - 2011.07.13 00:53:00 - [24] I think there is also the issue with the fact that you have to faction fit every gallente battleship just to fit a afterburner, full rack of your top guns, and a buffer / decent armor tank. And forget making it cap stable. Quote: "Frankly, my dear, I don't give a damn"
Digital Messiah Oregami Ultd	Posted - 2011.07.13 19:05:00 - [25] Originally by: Grimpak not this again. ok I'm going to post this one last time the issue with hybrids is a complex one. on blasters, it's a conjunction of ships being slow together with guns that provide only a small increase of damage for too many drawbacks. only ships that have some success in blaster configs is the shield hype and the shield brutix (quite the irony really), provided you have some tackle help, because that way you don't get your mobility nerfed to the whazoo and you can actually make your damage go up because of the myriad of lows available; and small ships because they are already very fast and agile and nobody in their sane mind plates up a taranis/enyo/daredevil. to make the agility penalty of armor tanked blasterships even worse, active armor tanking isn't really stellar compared to plate tanks, and the nano nerf killed the only mod that could make blasters kinda break even (web) together with nerfing mobility of a setup that already had mobility issues. to top all this, the web nerf killed the relative tracking of a gun that already provided only 5-10% more dps over their nearest counterpart, the pulses, that have a range advantage that can go over 300%, and have a much better relative tracking (even if the base tracking of a pulse is lower than their blaster counterpart). proposition to fix (medium and large) blasters would be increase their damage substantially, increase their tracking moderately, and making them totally useless beyond scram range, while revisiting armor plates and armor rig penalties so that they aren't as punitive as they are now, together with making blaster ships faster in a straight line by increasing speed to levels comparable to minmatar ships, but not agility. this way they still have their niche, and they don't step on any other weapon systems' toes. on the rail issue, while less complex than the blaster issue, it is actually one where a good "fix", where you maintain a status quo between weapon systems, is actually quite hard to come by with. rails have the biggest optimals in game. issue is that nowadays, anything that shoots beyond 150km is superfulous, making the rails range advantage, moot. beams have higher dps, while arties provide a much better burst damage, even if they have shorter optimals this issue is even more extrapolated with the fact that many caldari gunships (the ones that are supposed to be the rail platforms by excellence), seem to lack grid in a way that makes you think that CCP must want you to fit your lowslots with either power diags, RCU's, or a mix of both. most glaring examples are the eagle, where it's almost impossible to fit a full rack of 250's with anything else, and the tengu, where the grid subsystem, supposedly the sub that complements the rail offensive sub, has the lowest grid of all the engineering subs (550mw? really CCP?). there is no real "fix" to rails besides increasing grid on caldari gunships however. increasing damage is another fix to rails but it's still not enough. other ways to fix them would be by actually nerfing on-grid probing and increasing the targetting cap, but while on the first it might be hard to make it, on the second there are some can of worms that would open. I think you should post this "all the time". There are a lot of good points. And seeing as you understand the issue. It is only saddening that you don't voice this good opinion more often. /cheers and supported. Quote: "Frankly, my dear, I don't give a damn"
Digital Messiah Oregami Ultd	Posted - 2011.07.13 22:53:00 - [26] Edited by: Digital Messiah on 13/07/2011 22:55:29 Originally by: chrome diopside Ok you guys have made me feel real stupid cos I've been flying Gal boats for 3 years now and I love em! Rails are great for missions - I use 425mm IIs on a megathron and by switching between standard antimatter and spike I can hit anything I need to. Once stuff gets in real close (<10km) I have drones. PvE is very easy. I solo every lvl 4 out there without an issue. PvP often presents fitting issues but in general I can mount t2 Neutron Blasters, a great passive armor tank, point, web, cap booster (in case some wiseass has a neut) and when in fleet, warp to 0 on target and melt him. I used my learning sp to take Command Ships to 5 for an Astarte and interestingly I tested it out on corp members with way more sp and experience than me - Astarte > Abaddon, Armageddon, Hurricane, Typhoon easily - only issue I had was against a Maelstrom cos I was stupid and capped myself out with an MWD. Gal boats are great IF you have the subskills to fit them properly and use your mods effectively. So I don't understand what you guys are whining about? Or maybe I'm just too dumb to follow the argument... As mentioned before it isn't about being viable in some situations"Aka a tech 2 battlecruiser vs tech 1 BC's/BS's." It is being viable in all the other ones everything else is. There is a huge difference in fitting requirements. As I stated before it is harder to fit a megathron with neutron 2's than an abaddon with tachyon 2's. The biggest issue is that Gallente/Caldari hybrid ships simply do not perform as their role intends. People will continue to have an issue with their general performance. Quote: "Frankly, my dear, I don't give a damn"
Digital Messiah Oregami Ultd	Posted - 2011.07.14 00:37:00 - [27] Originally by: Omara Otawan Edited by: Omara Otawan on 13/07/2011 23:17:23 Originally by: Digital Messiah As I stated before it is harder to fit a megathron with neutron 2's than an abaddon with tachyon 2's. I can tell you have never actually tried to fit a tach abaddon. This is the real cause nothing gets done, there is a lot of decent feedback around but it gets completely drowned in useless comments like the one I just quoted. Now I appreaciate you being dedicated to our spaceships, but you are just hurting the cause with unqualified 'balancing' ideas that drown the good ones in a river of nonsense. Sometimes a simple 'I dont like the way it is but dont know what to do' is worth more. Leave the actual balance discussion to those who know what they are talking about. Just my 2 cents. I flew an amarr character for quite some time. And with two ancillary current router I's I could easily fit tachyons and a decent tank. And on top of that hit a target for about 2.5-3.5k alpha. Oh but i couldn't hit anything smaller than a battlecruiser from under 25,000m. "That is what drones are for!" Sound familiar? Quote: "Frankly, my dear, I don't give a damn"
Digital Messiah Oregami Ultd	Posted - 2011.07.14 21:48:00 - [28] Originally by: Grimpak Originally by: Cambarus Originally by: Grimpak also, people are forgetting that the long range comparision should actually be 425mm vs 1400mm vs megabeam, since the tachyon is considered a "tier 4 weapon". No, it shouldn't. but it is, devs (I think it was TomB) said so some 5-6 years ago. I don't understand why there are Tachyon's. But no equivalent for rails? Quote: "Frankly, my dear, I don't give a damn"
Digital Messiah Gallente Oregami Ultd	Posted - 2011.07.19 05:39:00 - [29] Originally by: Mary Astell Edited by: Mary Astell on 18/07/2011 18:05:54 Originally by: quigibow Originally by: Mary Astell I dont know, sure id love blasters to be better, but theres nothing like a shield tanked neutron myrm or just a common neutron mega. As long as you can get close and have a web anyway :) i can see you have never been kited by a cane with one speed mod before eh? I didnt say they were good for solo work. Just for sealing the deal. Breaking news! Hybrid turrets are balanced when no one is locking you and you are in a fleet where you can get in range to apply your dps. Quote: "Frankly, my dear, I don't give a damn"
Digital Messiah Gallente Oregami Ultd	Posted - 2011.08.09 21:25:00 - [30] A month and a day, with no response from CCP after nine pages? If I bring up the thread I posted before this asking for a time line. It has been almost four months! More and more it is looking like soonÖ, actually means never. Please CCP get hybrids fixed so I can actually, sanely, consider, training them on this character. Quote: "Frankly, my dear, I don't give a damn"

Digital Messiah Gallente Oregami Ultd	Posted - 2011.08.10 04:44:00 - [31] Originally by: Ager Agemo i completely agree with the fact big part of the problem is on the platform, trying to fit a full rack of tier 3 railguns on a rokh is short of impossible without using reactor control units, and even if you have the skills implants and modules to fit them and keep some tank and tracking bonuses, they still do lame damage, in the end i fitted my rokh with AC and it worked much better which is sorta stupid given it is supposedly a specialized hybrid platform. Another valid reason why this issue needs to be addressed sooner than later. And still no information on what soon means. Quote: "Frankly, my dear, I don't give a damn"
Digital Messiah Gallente Oregami Ultd	Posted - 2011.08.10 09:51:00 - [32] Originally by: Ludi Tomina Suitonias suggestions sound very logical. + 1 to you sir. There is a glutton of great ideas in this thread. All the information is set in front of the balancing team. Please for the love of new eden just do something. Make a small change with #'d patches like you do with everything else. Add in slight differences to the turrets and ships. 1. large group of players will test the changes. 2. you will get feedback... "there will be blood in the water" 3. supercaps = end game pvp anyways, you won't break anything. 4. you will probably break the turrets i take #3 back. 5. everyone will be ecstatic to see this issue reviewed. Quote: "Frankly, my dear, I don't give a damn"
Digital Messiah Gallente Oregami Ultd	Posted - 2011.08.10 23:05:00 - [33] Originally by: White Tree Its a combination of several factors, in my opinion: 1. Projectiles and Lasers were looked at in recent history. They were both altered and improved in different ways, Hybrids were ignored. 2. The gameplay style that once allowed Hybrids to be useful (i.e. pre-Nano nerf) is gone. The game has change significantly making Hybrid weapon style gameplay mostly redundant on a level above Frigate gameplay. 3. Gallente hulls are PLAGUED with fitting issues. There's either never enough grid or CPU to fit the ships the way they should be fit. Races like Minmatar do not have any problems fitting all of their best guns as well as prop and a sufficient tank. Gallente absolutely cannot fit their Tank, their Prop and their highest tier of weaponry. I am hopeful that CCP Tallest will get around to looking at Gallente eventually. I don't mind the idea that some ships are bad and that there's flavor of the month here and there but having an entire faction be useless save for one or two subcaps (Lachesis & Taranis) is absolutely absurd. Its about time that Hybrids (and Gallente!) got some love. Next time you are in Iceland. You should put a fire under their chairs and get them working to fix this. Quote: "Frankly, my dear, I don't give a damn"
Digital Messiah Gallente Oregami Ultd	Posted - 2011.08.11 05:36:00 - [34] Originally by: Rykuss Maybe we should protest. Twisted Evil Can I have your Vindicator? :D If I had one and it did something. Originally by: VaL Iscariot Edited by: VaL Iscariot on 11/08/2011 03:48:38 Edited by: VaL Iscariot on 11/08/2011 03:48:13 Originally by: Jones Bones Blasters are fine. Fix bad pilots. The only thing you could possible argue for is even better tracking. this. stop sucking at using blasters and blasters won't suck. You must be new here. Not every player is pro. And when it comes down to it. No one should expect every player to be above and beyond "average" piloting skill. Even if there are people who make hybrids work with select ships, in even more select situations. It doesn't mean they globally function properly. CCP, the CSM, and a huge majority of the player base, all see this issue. So please stop trolling, we aren't even crossing yo bridge. Quote: "Frankly, my dear, I don't give a damn"
Digital Messiah Gallente Oregami Ultd	Posted - 2011.08.14 21:50:00 - [35] Originally by: Suitonia Originally by: VaL Iscariot Edited by: VaL Iscariot on 11/08/2011 03:48:38 Edited by: VaL Iscariot on 11/08/2011 03:48:13 Originally by: Jones Bones Blasters are fine. Fix bad pilots. The only thing you could possible argue for is even better tracking. this. stop sucking at using blasters and blasters won't suck. Please teach me how to be pro enough to be able to surpass mathematics. I would love a response to this. As I would like to learn the secrets to improve my max velocity, range, and damage, with "skill". Quote: "Frankly, my dear, I don't give a damn"
Digital Messiah Gallente Oregami Ultd	Posted - 2011.08.25 06:58:00 - [36] Originally by: Hot Tubes I'm going to make some very unpopular suggestions with anyone who flies Minnie, but this is what I feel needs to be addressed before there can be a decent level of balance. Note this doesn't particularly deal with rails or long range weapons in general, as I'm not as familiar with them. So, with that said, turret rebalance: First: Bring other turrets down a bit to be not stupid OP. # Scorch ammo needs range cut by 33-50%. Abaddons with no optimal range bonuses shouldn't be able to have 45km optimal with scorch and 10km falloff. # All crystals should take 10 seconds to switch/reload. ** roleplay reasons, this is game balance reasoning. # The bonus to falloff given by tracking enhancers should be substantially reduced from the current (T2 is 30% bonus. I don't know a decent value but let's just say cut by 50%). The current level of falloff reached with autocannons is ing ridiculous. # Base tracking on autocannons should AT MOST be 50% of the equivalent blaster. They usually fight at long ranges, meaning that while they move faster their relative speed to the target is lower and so tracking isn't as necessary. Plus all those tracking enhancers which are practically mandatory on minnie ships will boost tracking a little anyway. Blasters should be the best tracking of all turrets. Too many minnie pilot can keep range and pick off frigs with awesome tracking and then race up beside a target and brawl the out of it due to having good enough tracking to get right up beside them. # INCREASE fitting requirements of projectiles to more closely match those of hybrids and lasers. An option people often ask for is to make it easier to fit the top tier of hybrids but, using blasters as an example, this completely makes elctrons and ions useless if neutrons can always be fit AND have prop mod AND have massive tank. There is good reason for the current trade off, and projectile weapons currently don't require this trade. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- Hybrid/gallente buff # Increase base top speed of gallente ships to be the highest of all. They should, with prop module, be able to scream in a straight line towards something and catch it. Keep agility as it is now. With good piloting they can still be avoided by minnie ships. Like in a bull fight, you don't run in a straight line away from the ing bull, you run perpendicular to it as it can't turn as fast. # Reduce the speed reduction incurred by using trimarks and armour plates. # Reduce the capacitor requirement of firing hybrids. Reduce reload time to 5 seconds (to facilitate using Null on approach then when/if you snag someone a change to a close range ammo doesn't you over). # For small blasters, increase base optimal range. It's slightly nuts to have an optimal of 500m roughly when you're piloting an interceptor which will refuse to orbit any closer than 1000m+ unless you practically stop the damn ship. # Tracking boost to all blasters. Ballpark figure of 20% # 5-10% dps boost, probably erring towards 5% due to the freak of nature known as the Vindicator. Some very good points. I was hoping by now CCP would step in to comment or provide a feedback / discussion thread to facilitate weapon balance issues. Quote: "Frankly, my dear, I don't give a damn"**

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